Sat Eye Candy: Gay Rights

THE PASSAGE OF PROPOSITION 8 IN CALIFORNIA
TRIGGERS DEEP CONCERNS ABOUT PERSONAL FREEDOMS

While there is much to celebrate in the past week in American political life, there is also reason for sadness and deep concern. Whether you are gay or not, the removal of freedoms won by law is no laughing matter. On this day in 1941, Heinrich Himmler ordered the arrest and deportation to concentration camps of all homosexuals in Germany (save for a few high ranking Nazi officials…cronyism and hypocrisy aren't new things in politics). Pastor Martin Niemöller's oft-quoted commentary on the inaction of Germans who opposed the Nazi agenda sadly springs immediately to mind:

When the Nazis came for the communists
I remained silent
I was not a communist

When they locked up the social democrats
I remained silent
I was not a social democrat

When they came for the trade unionists
I did not speak out
I was not a trade unionist

When they came for the Jews
I remained silent
I was not a Jew

When they came for me
there was no one left to speak out

While there is plenty of finger pointing that can be done on this matter, it seems far more important to step back and look at the bald inhumanity of telling two people in love that they cannot marry, that they cannot have the same social sanctification as those around them simply because they share the same sex. For many of us it is inconceivable that we are still debating this issue in the 21st century. The need for some to tear down the rights of others out of fear and ignorance is never pretty, and the passage of Prop. 8 in California and measures like it in a number of other states threaten core values in the American ideal. If we truly believe that "all men are created equal," then why establish inequities against any of them?

We begin this week's Eye Candy with a Special Comment from the fine Countdown with Keith Olberman program on MSNBC from earlier this week. In a very succinct way, Olberman slices to the heart of the injustice and darkness behind the passage of Prop. 8 and asks perhaps the most relevant question to those who voted for the proposition that anyone has offered on the subject: "Why does this matter to you?"


The musical portion of this installment starts with one of the greatest gay protest songs of all-time, Tom Robinson's "Glad To Be Gay" taken from the Secret Policeman's Ball in 1979.


From Sessions at West 54th in 1998, here's Rufus Wainwright playing his "Danny Boy," which speaks to a different kind of Irish eyes smiling and crying.


While a strutting billboard for heterosexuality, Rod Stewart created one of the finest laments for gay bashing ever with "The Killing of Georgie (Parts I & II)."


We turn to another bit of throbbin' American manhood, Bruce Springsteen, who gives great humanity to gay life under A.I.D.S. that reminds us of the faces and souls behind the name calling and prejudice some people harbor. Instead of "The Boss," we offer you a live cover from Casiotone for the Painfully Alone overflowing with jagged feeling.


The abject loneliness and isolation created by a society that rejects one because of their sexual orientation has rarely been so clearly etched as Bronski Beat's "Smalltown Boy," captured here on the Oxford Road Show in 1984. Remember, every gay or lesbian person is someone's daughter or son. Would you like your child treated unfairly by anyone or denied the same rights as you? Listen to the pain in Jimmy Somerville's voice if you have any doubts about your answer to this question.


We conclude on a brighter note. Few songs have embraced gay culture as joyously as The Kinks' "Lola." Here's the lads in 1970 sharing a cherry cola down in Soho with the ol' "girl." Let it make you smile and then go out and do something for your fellow human beings. Fight for basic freedoms. Fight for fairness.


For more background on Proposition 8 pop over here

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[Published on: 11/15/08]

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Comments

hobojo Sat 11/15/2008 06:50AM
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FloridaJam Sat 11/15/2008 07:19AM
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alw7 Sat 11/15/2008 08:05AM
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In 2008 this is still an issue,what a joke. People are dying ,starving,the economy is going down the toilet,and people are really worried about who's fucking who.Sad commentayr on our society.

amack star Sat 11/15/2008 08:52AM
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iwantstogetfunkedup Sat 11/15/2008 08:57AM
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Prop 8 passing was a terrible outcome to an otherwise great election. This prop was spearheaded by the Mormon church and is all about making a huge group of people into second class citizens. This is taking a huge fucking step backwards.

amack star Sat 11/15/2008 09:22AM
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futhepharmer Sat 11/15/2008 09:39AM
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futhepharmer Sat 11/15/2008 09:52AM
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futhepharmer

amack, do you even realize that our culture is built upon the premise that we love one and all, regardless who you are and what you're about. Yours and glassworks comments indicate the deterioration of our scene. Let me guess, you're under 25 years old and you probably believe in god (religious folks,please take no offense in that).

There is no room for racists and homophobes and especially the Religious Right round these here parts.

Mark Price former NBA star Sat 11/15/2008 09:52AM
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Mark Price former NBA star

Glassworks...NICE!!!

futhepharmer Sat 11/15/2008 10:05AM
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futhepharmer

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with religion or that it doesn't belong in our culture, I just want to make this point.

Those of you who dislike gays are either under the influence of a religion that tells you that it's a sin, or you are a closet homosexual yourself.

believe that.

jcolb16 starstarstar Sat 11/15/2008 10:08AM
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ClaysTribe starstarstar Sat 11/15/2008 10:08AM
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totalot Sat 11/15/2008 10:11AM
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just when you think that we have taken some many steps forward by voting a black man president, something like this takes place and completely derails equality. prop 8 and the people that support it are complete jokes. there is absolutely no reason for it except the control of folks that are easy to control because the lack the numbers and power to have a strong enough voice, yet. the good news in all of this is as with minority rights, women rights etc. its just a matter of time before gay folks have their day...and as far as the prejudice comments on this post...i am sure these folks would have been the same to have women and minorities the right to vote and marry too. keep in mind that it was as recent as 1967 when you were not allowed to marry out of your "race" too.

iwantstogetfunkedup Sat 11/15/2008 10:39AM
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Amcak- "the degradation of our society" ?? It's that viewpoint that perpetuates hate in our society. So, if you were dying and a gay paramedic came to save your life you would turn him away right? I think not. So then why should a gay man/woman be denied the same freedoms you enjoy?

Fondue starstarstarstar Sat 11/15/2008 10:56AM
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Wow, I never realized what "Lola" was about. Great song.

Okay, Jambase. You said you would ease up on the political agenda, and this is one of those real hot button issues, very divisive. I feel very strongly about this issue, as do many on here, but I don't feel that this is the place. I come to Jambase to read about and listen to music, relax and look forward to the next concert. Then I read an article like this and get all fired up. I think that this is a good post and brings up a lot of good things to think about, but I doubt you are changing anyone's mind.

Anyway, I'm not gay or anything, but that Rod Stewart fella is so ugly and yet so sexy. What a walking contradiction! :)

Mark Price former NBA star Sat 11/15/2008 11:08AM
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Mark Price former NBA star

this is the gayest thing that's ever been on Jambase

Armedaneian Sat 11/15/2008 11:37AM
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Armedaneian

Proposition 8 doesn’t really matter… it has no effect on a couple’s social, religious, or spiritual status, let alone their way of life. Marriage is a lifestyle, and if same sex couples want to live that way, there is still no law against it. The legality this proposition reflects only has financial effects… and there are plenty of financial difficulties we can be born into. Fortunately, with hard work and dedication, financial matters can be overcome. Homosexuals, unlike those who puff dank headies, won’t be dragged to jail for doing what they do. Unfortunately, no amount of money can prevent the Nazis from hauling you off… if you possess that sticky, icky, illegal Mother Nature. No, Proposition 8 doesn’t change the world at all, and to be honest, marriage shouldn’t provide a tax advantage to anyone. As far as “the degradation of society” goes… Gangster Rap already has that role filled!

hellyeah Sat 11/15/2008 12:55PM
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SmashySmashy Sat 11/15/2008 12:56PM
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SmashySmashy

jcolb16 - Take it from me, who is an actual evolutionary biologist at University of New Hampshire, but you lose this one. Homosexuality, or at least bisexuality, is incredibly prevalent in nature. In some cases, this behavior is thought to evolve as population control. Something that this world absolutely needs right now. Sorry my gay friends, I know that doesn't sound to romantic, but you are doing us a huge favor by not reproducing and by adopting. So even though I somewhat agree with you now and then jcol, I think you are extremely ignorant and you best not drop the "evolutionary biology" when there are real ones on this site. You are definitely not helping our cause by sounding like a moron. The fact is that this whole gay marriage thing is a non-issue. It is a waste of time. Our forefathers never wanted the government to control our personal lives. So go piss off and read one of Ron Paul's books, thanks.

Jeff Kash Sat 11/15/2008 01:02PM
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Jeff Kash

claystribe- It's that time of the month, eh?

SmashySmashy Sat 11/15/2008 02:01PM
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SmashySmashy

Wow claystribe, you calling the entire Mormon religion child molesters makes you just as bad as any of the homophobes against 8. I have my own issues with religion, but at least I am well read and educated on the issue. Less than 1% of Mormons are polygamists and less than 1% of the polys are down with the whole underage deal. You just justified amak's hate for a whole group of people because probably he too has a problem with less than 0.1% of them. Good job!

fishbone1 Sat 11/15/2008 02:09PM
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fishbone1

1% of 1% is 0.01%

Marcsmall starstarstarstarstar Sat 11/15/2008 02:20PM
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Marcsmall

Personally, I don't think it's any of my business who someone wants to screw or Marry. Marry your goddamn doorknob for all I care....It doesn't affect me. I don't see why anyone would care if someone else was gay or straight. Plus the fact that this issue gets the looney religious right so upset makes me support it all that much.

To Each Thier Own!!

phoolish Sat 11/15/2008 02:23PM
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phoolish

How about this...why don't we make ALL unions between two individuals, civil unions in the eyes of the state. Leave the concept of "marriage" up to religions.

jus100odon Sat 11/15/2008 03:43PM
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phreak89 Sat 11/15/2008 03:45PM
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phreak89

In some ways, if you think about it, Prop 8 was illegally passed. While yes everyone in California (and Florida and Arizona I think it was similar "Marriage Protection Laws" were passed) voted for this on his/her own beliefs, there were many churches that were promoting Prop 8 both in their churches and out on the streets. Forgive me for not remembering the specific law or amendment but I do know there is a law that says religious institutions cannot openly promote political figures or proposed laws. While this does still happen all the time sometimes it makes a difference sometimes it doesn't. It sure as hell seems to me it did this time. So I guess saying it was passed illegally was not the best was to put it but maybe it was promoted illegally and thus might have swayed a lot of people who might have had no real opinion on the law before. And you know how religious institutions promote their shit, with full fledged fire and brimstone talk.

Marcsmall Sat 11/15/2008 04:35PM
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Marcsmall

These people are out of their fucking minds....We have 2 retarded wars going on, a scary recession, massive unemployment and foreclosures, and these people are concerned with Gay People getting married? It seems like more of a mental health issue than a stance or belief.

torn&treyed Sat 11/15/2008 04:59PM
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Before I begin my discussion I would like to say I am wholly apathetic on the issue as it does not affect me in any way shape or form... sorry I'm selfish like that. That being said

1) I do not know how I feel about gay couples being allowed to adopt children, please spare me the better off there than a crack house or China argument. 2) While we are a secular country, spare me "the we are not" stuff please its a dead horse we just are. Marriage has its roots in monotheistic reliegons, none of which say it is ok...... HOWEVER, if an individual state would like to pass this type of legislation it is not within the scope of the federal goverment's power to say either way. But if a state does do so that is not to say it should be recognized in a state that does not say so. Basic biology dictates that homosexuality is improper. The historical argument does not fly either... sorry

Marcsmall Sat 11/15/2008 05:31PM
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Marcsmall

Josh----If basic biology dictates such, can you explain why homosexuality exists in almost every species of vertebrate, and many species of insects?

Marcsmall Sat 11/15/2008 05:40PM
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Marcsmall

Oh, and by the way, over 1500 animal species exhibit homosexual behavior....It is well accepted and documented among the zoological community. Animals, in general, also exhibit sexual-type behavior for other reasons besides reproduction (fellatio, masturbation, etc). Some of them just happen to prefer members of the same sex.

gOdWesSaTaN Sat 11/15/2008 08:02PM
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gOdWesSaTaN

gay straight trans all should be able to marry who they want why does it matter so much to you people is it really hurting you in any way, do you lie in bed at night and fear that gays will take over the world if they get the same rights as you. really explain why you care so much to deny someone these rights? before you answer think about it.

Armedaneian Sat 11/15/2008 08:51PM
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Armedaneian

God-Satan… What “rights” are being denied… the right to special tax considerations? If so, single people all across the country are denied those same tax benefits! Are their “rights” being infringed upon too? I think homosexuals are still “allowed” to do the same things my wife and I enjoy… without the arrest and deportation Pastor Niemöller refers to. The way this article compares the denial of paperwork to murder by the Nazis is ridiculous. Plenty of unfair things actually harm people or deny their basic civil rights… shouldn’t we spend our energies protesting them instead of this?

mmmFriedFrogLegs Sat 11/15/2008 09:05PM
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mmmFriedFrogLegs

yeh this has got to be the lamest saturday eye candy. comeon jambase. although i believe marriage is something sacred between a man and a woman. and its just a tradition thing that i believe gays should look past. i mean gays get treated equally in most other facets from what i understand and how i was raised. some of my best friends have been homosexual and stand up individuals, i do find homosexuality unnatural to me i just judge others on individual basis and treat them as id like to be treated. its just i expect to see something maybe with high quality sat eye candy on the subject of MUSIC, major letdown. because i always look forward to sat eye candy and sunday spin. and this is lame.jambase chill with the politics. we want music coverate/ live improve preferably.so im askin u once again . cut the potical shit.

gOdWesSaTaN Sat 11/15/2008 09:12PM
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gOdWesSaTaN

well here in georgia its not legal to issue a marriage license to a homosexual couple and there marriage isnt recognized if its out of state so my point is they dont have the same rights as a straight couple and they should be recongnized everywhere and legal everywhere. i agree bicthing on a message board isnt gonna change anything so yeah protesting would help more then this pointless message board. i just wanted to know why so many people on here are so freaked out about gays getting married and why there so concerned about denying them the right to get married. just think about if you werent legally allowed to be married to your wife.

drnokbot starstarstarstarstar Sat 11/15/2008 09:47PM
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drnokbot

This is a human rights issue. That is why jambase is taking a stand. Apple also publicly spoke against Prop 8 for the same reasons.

schofizzl Sun 11/16/2008 01:17AM
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schofizzl

i'm personall disgusted by the fact that jambase didn't post any Queen videos on this article.

Mark Price former NBA star Sun 11/16/2008 03:12AM
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Armedaneian Sun 11/16/2008 06:03AM
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Armedaneian

I still don’t understand the actual activity these “denied rights” prohibit homosexuals from engaging in. They can have a ceremony, share rings, go on a honeymoon, live together, sleep in the same bed, and share a bank account. They can be partners throughout life. Really, going to city hall to get the certificate is the last thing I associate with my marriage. I just don’t see any enjoyment, let alone human rights being denied here. Go ahead and look up Human Rights or the Bill of Rights and tell me which of those are being denied. Why do you care what the government calls you? If you enjoy nugs at a concert, like (almost) everyone here does, they call you a criminal.

JennSvenn starstarstarstarstar Sun 11/16/2008 08:34AM
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JennSvenn

I would like to implore all of the "hot bitches" that PhilCollins seems to think he's going to "bang" to please stay away from that guy. What a turd. Also, FrogLegs, this article IS about music. It's about music with a purpose and a message. If you don't like the message, don't listen. If you don't like what JamBase has turned into, stop visitng the site. There's nothing wrong with music that has a message and I don't think JamBase should quit covering certain bands just because they may have political undertones. There are plenty of bands that play music for the sake of music, go find them and indulge but don't criticize people like myself or others on this website that enjoy this kind of stuff. Also, as evidenced by the wide array of artists included in this article from many different generations, politics has had a place in music for quite some time and it's not going anywhere any time soon. Get used to it!! Peace y'all.

futhepharmer Sun 11/16/2008 09:05AM
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futhepharmer

^yeah, you go girl! that's my bride to be there^. and you thought I was tough!

Hey everyone, want a good laugh?

Just go to PhilCollins jambase page. in his "about me" he says he has the coolest tattoo in the whole wide world! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! WHAT AN ASSBAG!

Hey evryone, look at ME! I'VE got the COOLEST tattoo in the world! seriously! that's what he said. A bigger fucknut the world will never know.

That frogleggs, my friend (sorry, didn't mean to sound like John McCain there), is why I like these kind of articles on Jambase.

What a great opportunity to find out what everyone that posts on these here boards is really made of.

See, once again I will reiterate what exactly this great culture/scene of ours is about.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE GREAT MUSIC.

Back in the 60's, hippies and nonconformists were getting shat on by the establishment. The San Francisco scene was a place where EVERYONE could belong, regardless of race, creed, religion or sexual orientation. We all felt as though we could have a place in this particular society (No, I wasn't there. I'm old but not that old!). We took care of one another and shared what we had with those who didn't have. The old school among us will recognize the warm feeling these activities used to generate. It was one of the all-time BEST feelings in the world!

Unfortunately, I don't feel that feeling so much around our scene anymore.

Glassworks...how proud you are of that Phish ticket.

You, my friend, have no clue what is WAS all about. Have fun with many others of your ilk. The lot is diluted. Get ready for what happened with Dave Matthews crowd. The "Hip" crowd and many youngsters probably not unlike yourself will be convening on Hampton with a lust for drugs, partying and fun, BUT...with none of the aforementioned warmth and kindness one used to find on the lot. You all picked up the music from your older brothers and sisters, but somewhere along the line, the culture and etiquette of the jam community got lost.

anyways, like I said, keep up the political articles jambase. It allows us to ferret out the folks that don't belong

Jack Straw Berry starstarstarstar Sun 11/16/2008 09:15AM
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Jack Straw Berry

Get the church out of my government...

Oh and for the homophobic hippies on this site...go check out all the "gay" dolphins and dogs, etc. Homosexual behavior is prevalent in nature, and (as some other astute poster said) might be an evolutionary adaptation (of course, you'd have to believe in evolution to follow this train of thought)...to deal with a population reaching it's environmental carrying capacity. Now, regardless of what body part goes in what orifice, don't we want to support committed, long term relationships? Seems like a good thing regardless of anatomy....though ultimately, this is about the US Constitution...and that's where this cat fight is going soon - be it an issue of separation of church and state or equal protection under the law...

Oh yeah, and for the right wing rockers on the site...how 'bout that Old Testament where wives are property and one man might have had plenty of them? Don't give us that crap about marriage being a thousands year old tradition about a relationship between a man and a woman....Marriage has been "evolving" (again, if you believe in evolution) social/religious convention for a long time in various iterations - it just happens to be that now we are taking on a new debate about it (though formal same sex unions actually have historical precedent way before Massachusetts legalized gay marriage)... see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions for an enlightening discussion of this...

That said, the original story chose some interesting music to profile, but not exactly music that might appeal to this audience. How bout Phil's words sad commentary on modern society in Unbroken Chain? "They say love your brother...but you'll catch it if you try"

FloridaJam starstarstarstarstar Sun 11/16/2008 09:41AM
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I could care less what people choose to do in their own personal lives. But please stop using this "animals in nature are homosexual" bullshit argument. Animals in nature also eat their own shit, eat their own young, kill their siblings for dominance. Sure my male dog likes to pin down other male dogs sometimes and stick his red rocket in another dog's ass, but that dosen't mean that I would do it too. The difference between humans and animals in nature is that we are capable of making rational decisions. Thats why i don't eat my own shit. If people like SCIfreak wants to marry his boyfriend, thats fine by me.

FloridaJam Sun 11/16/2008 09:47AM
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oh yeah...and people bragging that they got scalped for phish's whack ass shut out reunion....the people like glassworks who paid $1000 a pop for a ticket....well, thats even more gay than this article! Glassworks is the posterboy for gayrights. Glassworks i support your right to be gay!

Mexicenfood star Sun 11/16/2008 09:51AM
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I don't understand why people get worked up about this. This is America. People vote. People spoke and that is that, you can bitch all you want but the people voted. Jam Base should of done this article a month ago and maybe educated the people about Prop 8, they didn't and the people voted so everyone stop bitching. we VOTE in America.

ScIFreak Sun 11/16/2008 10:07AM
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Jack Straw Berry Sun 11/16/2008 10:28AM
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Jack Straw Berry

Yeah, mexicenfood...we voted to not allow blacks and whites to marry a while back too...and the courts found that to be unconstitutional...The church doesn't have to support it, but the gov shouldn't be sponsoring (what are now apparently) religiously-based partnerships. I'm now prepared to be called various epithets by the highly enlightened group that frequents this board...Yes, maybe we should keep it simple and only debate whether my band is better than yours or whose got the stickiest dank nugs. Didn't you kids ever learn anything when you jumped on the bus or is this just another music genre now?

ScIFreak Sun 11/16/2008 10:32AM
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Armedaneian Sun 11/16/2008 10:50AM
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Armedaneian

I think its funny how those unable to debate my point still click the thumbs down button. I’m just trying to put things in perspective and don’t mean to insult your sexual preference!

singmh Sun 11/16/2008 11:28AM
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jambase you should be ashamed by comparing this issue to the holocaust. 1st of all that is a travesty to compare an issue in which people voted on and have freedom of choice to the holocaust where people could not vote about the issue. They were just shipped off to concentration camps and killed. Jambase you should be ashamed of yourself not because this article is about gay rights, but because you are trying to make into a situation comparable to nazi germany.

I agree with SCIfreak that hampton will be a great place to show off some gay pride!

brendan3 starstarstar Sun 11/16/2008 12:05PM
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holy crap, all of us need to take a step back, look at our lives and identify something that we do that a large portion of society doesn't agree with...

every body got one?

good.

how about we'd all be happy if what we did was our business and what other people do is their business. i think that might work, if a man wants to do something i don't like but it has absolutely no affect on me what the fuck do i care? sorry for the rant but shit, we all, ok most of us, get high. don't we want everyone to leave us alone to do what we do without hurting anyone? maybe we ought to practice what we preach. this isn't about law it'a about being good people.

rschwartz88 star Sun 11/16/2008 12:20PM
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The idea of comparing the atrocities of Hitler's concentration camps - in which 10 million people were slaughtered because of religious hatred and sickening narrow mindedness - to the passage of prop 8 in California is highly disturbing in and of itself. I'm all for gay rights and personally think its ridiculous that any same sex couple should be denied the financial benefits afforded to married couples, but there are acceptable means through which people can express their opinions. Drawing comparisons between the systematic extermination the Nazi's attempted of Europe's homosexual (along with Jewish, mentally retarded, Gypsy, etc) population and intricacies of state law classifying a couple's status is deplorable. In a very real sense you're demeaning the deaths of these millions of people in comparing their suffering to this legislation, just because it affects the same group of people.

Thank you singmh and sahagian for bringing this up before me.

futhepharmer Sun 11/16/2008 02:02PM
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futhepharmer

Why does everyone get so pissed when I talk about how awesome it was in the past? I'll admit. it's still a better scene than most. but c'mon, scifreak, if as you infer, that you were there, you're really gonna tell me that the lot today is the same as it was in 95? Who are you kidding.

and, by the way, I was refering to the Grateful Dead Scene as where it all started. NOT the Phish scene as so many of you folk seem to think.

If you don't think the MTV Rap video weened crowd that's in college now and heard that Phish was the shit and it's the "hip" place to be, you really haven't gone to that many shows recently or are just another youngster who thinks he knows all there is to know about Jam. I see you've only been a member since 2006. huh

stoops Sun 11/16/2008 03:16PM
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stoops

marriage has always been between a man and a woman. what are we actually disputing here? if the majority of a states voters wishes to have the right to marry without being equated to homosexuality, so be it. gay relationships and straight relationships are not the same, so why do proponents of prop 8 insist that everyone act as though they are? it just seems absurd...

dodd's corollary and godwin's law adequately address the one-sided nazi argument presented by the marshmallow squeezers of jambase. thanks for presenting both sides of the issue impartially. stick to bad reporting about music; your boy olbermann(as the above felating citation indicates) has the radical homo newsman market cornered!

SmashySmashy Sun 11/16/2008 03:48PM
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SmashySmashy

There is a major problem for both sides of this argument. Marriage DOES give you more privileges that civil unions don't, the big ones being: tax breaks, hospital/critical care visits, child adoption, and then a whole slew of other more minor legal annoyances. On the other hand, many prop 8 supporters fear that if gay marriage is allowed, the state can start forcing churches to marry gay couples. I think the best solution would be for the state to ONLY define civil unions, and ONLY this terminology will be used for legal purposes. Marriage is a religious term and it should stay that way. What happened to the separation of church and state? It is quite the simple solution, but that would require our government to.. you know.. do something! At least do something that doesn't involve stealing our money and taking away our liberties. The REAL issue here is that we have REAL problems in this country. We have a economic crisis that our president elect thinks that MORE bailouts and more borrowing from our pyramid scheme federal reserve is somehow change???? And we have a war overseas that our president elect thinks we should CHANGE from Iraq to Pakistan and Afghanistan. We have a president elect who thinks CHANGE means giving cabinet positions to old school politicians, many of whom are known from taking huge bonuses from lobbyists and special interest groups. I know why you guys voted for Obama, I too am sick of what is going on with the Bush administration. Please let your voices be continued to be heard and make sure our new president really does make the changes we need. Thank you.

SmashySmashy Sun 11/16/2008 03:54PM
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SmashySmashy

Oh and fu, it is nothing personal man. But no one likes some old dude who somehow miraculously figured out how to use one of dem compu-to-boxes thingys (kudos to you!) just to brag about how good the good-ol-days were. It's pretty predictable/cliche/whatever. It isn't as annoying as people who brag about buying scalped tickets, but it just adds fuel to that fire, you know?

Armedaneian Sun 11/16/2008 07:19PM
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Armedaneian

Smashy… as an evolutionary biologist, what’s your opinion about sexual orientation being a phenotype rather than a choice? Also, I’m not sure what the “whole slew of minor legal annoyances” you mentioned is, but there are many homosexual couples who have no problem with hospital/critical care visits or child adoption. While it may take money, you can’t really say homosexuals are denied these “rights”. Finally, I believe fu’s generation may have invented the “compu-to-boxes thingys” you seem to believe he needs a miracle to use! I wonder how those “old dudes” got by before your generation came along?

YEMolly Sun 11/16/2008 08:16PM
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YEMolly

Okay, this argument pisses me off. Evolutionary science aside, ask someone from the medical community or do some scientific research, overwhelmingly, you'll find arguments stating homosexuality is NOT a choice. And if you think otherwise, you obviously don't know any gay people. Did you choose to be straight? Do you think these people choose a life of discrimination and hate? If you say it is a choice, you're accusing millions of people of lying. Let me know a gay person's response the next time you ask them if those CHOSE to be gay.

And yes, it is a violation of civil rights, BUT the government should NOT be involved in marriage at all; it should be left up to the churches for them to decide who they want to marry. We wouldn't allow church congregations to decide on a government issue. The fact that it's even an issue is just plain fuckin' weird. If you're honestly worried about who someone is marrying, you've got bigger issues than you think.

MyFavBandIsTheBestYoursSucks Mon 11/17/2008 05:55AM
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MyFavBandIsTheBestYoursSucks

The church & mommy & daddy told me "gay" is evil, they must be right? right?

Come on people we need more common sense on this issue.

phoolish said it perfectly: How about this...why don't we make ALL unions between two individuals, civil unions in the eyes of the state. Leave the concept of "marriage" up to religions.

Armedaneian Mon 11/17/2008 06:08AM
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Armedaneian

Molly... can you direct me to the medical community or scientific research that "overwhelmingly" agrees with your statement? I enjoy new research and would like to see the evidence. If the doctor(s) or scientist(s) you refer to happen to be gay, please direct me to the study that supports their opinion.

Armedaneian Mon 11/17/2008 06:19AM
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Armedaneian

Keep in mind that genetics aren’t the only factor dictating who we are… environment, and our choices within it, play a big part too. Regardless whether your lifestyle choice is based in psychology or physiology, you have the “right” to choose whichever partner you like, whether or not mating or copulation is possible. Why do you care how others view that choice? If your sexual appetite is satisfied by doorknobs, then you have a right to doorknobs and if your digestive appetite is satisfied by trans-fats and high fructose corn syrup you have a right to them too, but the scientific community has a right to label you how they see fit. You can not claim it’s a “civil right” to be called healthy and receive cheaper insurance.

JennSvenn Mon 11/17/2008 07:45AM
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JennSvenn

SmashySmashy...sure Fu may add fuel to the fire, but compared to calling others "faggots" and "fudge packers," I'll take reminiscing over the "good old days" any day. Call me crazy. I understand that it only adds fuel to the fire; I'm sure PharmerFu does, too. But perhaps you could make the same request of the people spewing hate on these boards, as well (all you mentioned, after all, was bragging about scalped tickets...bigotry bothers me more). Those guys are stoking a much bigger fire than PharmerFu may be.

YEMolly Mon 11/17/2008 08:51AM
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YEMolly

Sahagian-I'd be more than happy to send you some links when I have time.

But let's say that someone's sexuality is a choice (but I'm telling you right now, I didn't "choose" to be straight, and my gay friends would have a hayday with you when you tell them they chose to be gay)is that an argument for banning gay marriage? I still don't understand the justification. And I really don't understand how the government has a say in it at all. Should the government also be voting on who in the churh can become a priest or preacher? And should the gov be voting on who the churce allows to take communion?? Might as well b/c I guess there is obviously no such thing as the separation of church and state anymore. A theocracy sounds sooo much more appealing to live in!

JERRYmadeLIVEmusic Mon 11/17/2008 09:48AM
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JERRYmadeLIVEmusic

All we are saying, is give peace a chance...

SmashySmashy Mon 11/17/2008 10:13AM
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SmashySmashy

sahagian - If I could comment on the "phenotype" of gayness, I would be a very very famous man because that would mean I tied homosexuality to a gene or genes. I personally don't see any difference in the argument whether it is a choice or genetically linked. Under the constitution we are allowed to make a lot of choices. Certain choices obviously need to have laws, such as homicide. I think personal choices such as your sexuality are not to be interfered with by the government. At the same time, the govt can't tell the churches what to do. Marriage should be a religious term and not a political term. Period... I am glad you heard that homosexuals have no problem adopting and with hospital visits. I am sure many don't experience problems. But the fact that a good number do have problems negates the fact that maybe some don't have a problem. And you said "While it may take money, you can’t really say homosexuals are denied these “rights”." What the fuck? Seriously? So if money can buy your rights then it is ok as long as you got the cash? Is that seriously what you are arguing? Go read a book by Ron Paul or even Thomas Jefferson my friend and learn yourself a thing or two... And as far as Fu goes, it was a playful (maybe a little bit gay) jab at him. I think it is obvious he is the better man of his little tiff he had with Mr. scalper sucker. But have you seen his pictures? He is pretty old. I still give him kudos for using a computer!

SmashySmashy Mon 11/17/2008 10:19AM
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SmashySmashy

Oh and Sahagian - Let's not forget the biggest issue. Tax breaks for marriages and NOT civil unions. I see you skipped right over that one. I agree with you that we can't force homosexual marriage by law. So we need to change the law to only include Civil Unions and not the religious terms. I don't understand why you cant agree with that compromise? Please enlighten me!!!!

Armedaneian Mon 11/17/2008 12:29PM
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Armedaneian

Smashy, first of all, there is no way your gay friends would ever have a “hayday” with me! Secondly, I will enlighten you… I never said I believe your friends chose to be gay and I never said they should be taxed any differently. You claim I “skipped right over that one”, but if you search the above text, you’ll find it was I that brought it up… and I still think it’s this proposition’s only tangible effect. Also, I never said I voted for Prop 8! I believe that gay or straight, single or married; we should all be taxed equally. In regards to non-married homosexuals having legal difficulties, my point was that these financial inequities, although unfair, are a far cry from civil rights violations and in no way resemble Nazi murder. Do you really believe couples should have a “right” to adoption? I think that’s a privilege. As far as your suggestion I read Ron Paul, I am a Libertarian… you are preaching to the choir!

Armedaneian Mon 11/17/2008 12:44PM
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Armedaneian

This again goes to Smashy and I apologize for anyone else having to read this… I was just asking your opinion, from an evolutionary biologist’s perspective. I think you should realize there can be no gay genotype for a “sexual orientation gene”. It would eliminate itself from the gene pool rather quickly. From an evolutionary point of view… if a trait does not procreate its gene can not survive. For this reason, scientific opinion leans towards a psychological cause, but I have my doubts. Even though it’s beyond the scope of this political article, I’ll share my hypothesis with you. At the risk of becoming famous… it assumes homosexuals have no choice and sexual orientation is influenced by genetically determined tastes: during gamete formation, chiasmata in the 23rd tetrad exchange code for sexual appetites. The X chromosome’s preferences (tall vs. short, smooth vs. hairy, skinny vs. big) crossover to the Y chromosome, and the factors that influence coital attraction become linked to the opposite sex chromosome. Female tastes become that of the male gamete and vice versa. Of course, this can only occur during male meiosis, and fathers would be responsible for their children’s homosexuality. I think it has doctoral thesis potential, don’t you?

SmashySmashy Mon 11/17/2008 01:13PM
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SmashySmashy

Please remind me where I was talking about my gay friends? I don't recall that seeing as how I barely even know anyone who is out of the closet up here in NH. And if you confused me as someone who is defending Jambase's Holocaust reference, there was a misunderstanding seeing as how I am of Jewish decent and my gramps barely escaped Hitler's rein. I certainly do not appreciate even suggesting comparing the Holocaust to the gay's struggle for equality here in the US. If you are libertarian, I don't understand why you are playing devil's advocate because the bottom line is that we should not have income taxes, nevermind any sort of selective tax break that could depend on sexual orientation. That is not the only tangible effect of prop 8, that is THE tangible effect. But what it really comes down to, is that at this point in time prop 8 should really be a non-issue relative to our major world problems going on right now. But I too am guilty about being diverted by this issue when I know I shouldn't. And if you are really libertarian, sticking up for Fu probably isn't in your best interest since him and I have gotten into a few arguments and he is still defending Obama. By the way, today Obama said that we shouldn't care about our deficit to bail out big businesses who make poor decisions: http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE4AG02G20081117

And he has also made statements that he will likely go along with the new security deal to keep our troops in Iraq until 2011. What happened to 16 months!!! That was the one positive thing I could say about his election and now he isn't even going to do that! Where is this change you speak of Obamaites?

SmashySmashy Mon 11/17/2008 01:18PM
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SmashySmashy

Sahagian - this is where you are wrong. Behaviors can be tied to a genotype. How do you explain inherited behaviors such as migratory habits of birds? There are certain genes that can influence behavior. There is no direct gene that would make you gay or not gay, but it could influence the choice. It has an effect on population, not individual. So potential gayness could be inherited and it would most likely to occur in over-populated species with a large N. It's not black and white man. You can't say the behavior is definitely not inherited on some level. Yes there is not one single gene that makes you gay or not, but it is WAY more complicated than that. Don't listen to this fool!

JAMBOE Mon 11/17/2008 01:22PM
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JAMBOE

Hi. I'm Gay. No it isn't a choice.

The scientific explanation for homosexuality is leaning toward physiological changes in the mother. The more older siblings a person has , the more likeley that person will be gay. This hints at hormone levels in the mother playing a key role in the child's sexuality. This would account for inconsistencies as hormone levels don't necessarily follow this pattern. (i.e. first child being gay, the second or third not)

That being said, Even though I do not necessarily want to get married to another man, to have people in the country that I live in, vote to take away any right to allow me to do so is...disgusting. I can think of no other word for it. Anyone who voted for this measure should feel nothing but deep shame for what they have done.

To gay people, this isn't about tax laws, or religion. It's about professing the love that they have for eachother in front of friends, family, and their God. For anyone to say that they aren't allowed to do so and create constitutional amendments banning it is....disgusting.

Freedoms to engage in fundamental rights is key to our society, it is key to the American vision, and truly preserves everything that we all hold dear to our hearts including allowing our churches etc. to be able to decide who they want to marry.

That being said, Who's got my Phish tickets?

SmashySmashy Mon 11/17/2008 01:29PM
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SmashySmashy

Sahagian - You can only prove that a behavior is influenced by a gene, you can not prove that a behavior has absolutely no influence by some genotype. There might be a genotype that is more prone to homosexuality, but because it is not 100%, there is no hard selection to lose that allele/alleles. So your argument about selection is bogus. But I also think it is obvious that nurture is the dominant force here. But to say that your genotype has no effect on a behavior, man you need to go back and take some basic molecular evolution courses my friend. Sorry to deromanticize this for you Jamboe

SmashySmashy Mon 11/17/2008 01:42PM
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SmashySmashy

Oh ya and one more case for you just because I am that good... Let's say there is 1 gene that is the "gay" gene. It pops up through random mutation and genetic drift. You said there is hard selection to get rid of that allele since they aren't reproducing. Can't look at it that way with human though dude. Maybe with birds. But we have cultural aspects that effect our genotype. See, back in the day you could never admit you were gay. You would get married and have kids, and then have your real life partner on the side. Boom, that genotype starts to rise in the population. This is not what I think is going on in the human population, but it is one example of something that could. It isn't black or white.

Armedaneian Mon 11/17/2008 03:33PM
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Armedaneian

Don’t take offense Smashy, but I got you confused with Molly. Thanks for the opinion though. I wonder how the genes involved may shift, now that the days of “staying in the closet” are gone and the cultural aspects you described disappear. Although, Proposition 8 may have been a step backwards, it’s only a temporary one. The stigma attached to homosexuality will be gone in a number of generations, that goes for racism too. Jamboe, I’m rooting for you. If you ever find that special someone and decide to tie the knot you can still profess your love in front of friends, family, and God… whether or not Uncle Sam acknowledges it. You should never care what anybody else thinks.

torn&treyed Tue 11/18/2008 03:09PM
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marcsmall in response to your comment, basic biology does dictate as reproduction (please spare me the hermaphroditic plants and lizards argument) only occurs ... well you know what I am going to say.... sorry its just evoloution. If a speciies was wired to have more homosexuals than not it would have died out long ago..... but like I said..... I dont think its wrong I just dont want to open up the can of worms, then next you have transgender people wanting their own bathrooms, you will have 8 sets of bathrooms in every place.... people will want to marry a chair and then adopt a table and send it to school...... all I am saying is you want to be gay thats cool with me, you want to have a civil union and get tax breaks also cool, but legally speaking its one of the latches on pandora's box......

pheelingphunky Tue 11/18/2008 08:10PM
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I find it interesting that people who claim that they are part of a liberal and progressive community can be so closed-minded when it comes to an issue of controversy. Isn't self expression and the right to be who you want, regardless of what others think, part of the very fabric of what live, improvisational music is all about? The proposition that was passed not only serves the purpose of keeping the gay community separate from the rest of society in terms of rights, but alienates the people themselves. If people are unable to see a connection between this article and the music scene, I'm sorry to say, you really don't know what music is all about. The right to do what you want, without any restrictions, is at the heart of where great music comes from. Moreover, it is love and freedom that provides a drive to create music. Placing a restriction on an expression of love is no different then placing a restriction on an expression of music. A lot of people are saying, "Why should you care what everyone else thinks?" or "Civil unions give the same rights as marriage, why isn't that good enough?" or the stupidest reason possible "Homosexuality is against evolution and is unnatural." I have something to say to you if you hold any of these viewpoints. Why should you care what other people's lifestyles are? Are they infringing on your rights? And most importantly, why should you be the ones passing judgment when it is not your life to live? It boils down to marriage vs. civil union, which is basically separate but equal. Its the same story as the civil rights movement for African Americans, except this time its not over the color of your skin. As a nation we should be against this very principle because its obvious that you cannot divide people and still claim that they are equal.

Queen, Lou Reed, Bowie, and countless others not only sang about gay lifestyle, but sang about how society made the living of that lifestyle hard, or even impossible. If you can't see the connection between self expression in music and self expression in love then there is a problem. And even if that expression of love is permitted, or tolerated, there is still an infringement on it by not allowing people to take it to the next level. Would Bohemian Rhapsody have been as influential if Freddy Mercury was not allowed to follow through with the expression of his idea to the very end? Because that is what happening. Gays who want to express their love to the fullest extent are not able to, and that is not only the problem, but where it connects to music. If artists were not able to fulfill the expression of their ideas, there would no music, just half-spoken beliefs and stories.

If you carry an prejudice or bigotry in your heart, I am not asking you to change your beliefs or even stop expressing them. because thats what freedom is all about, expressing yourself. But understand, in carrying out these beliefs, such as in Prop 8, you are restricting the rights of others, and if it were you, you wouldn't take it sitting down.

I'm gay and I'm going to get marred whether you like it or not. I'll probably have kids too. And most likely they'll be healthier and more socially knowledgeable than the kids of someone who doesn't understand differences in skin color, religion, or sexual orientation. Just know that when you say that this has noting to do with music, you are completely wrong. See what your favorite band members have to say about gay rights and how they influence music cause I can sure as hell tell you that it won't be a short answer. It has everything to do with music.

Armedaneian Wed 11/19/2008 06:14AM
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Armedaneian

Phunky… I’m still not sure gay marriage effects music at all, other than that which was written about it. My points are that government acknowledgement of the activity doesn’t reflect your ability to partake in it, and marriage itself is not included in the original definition of “civil rights”. You can still do whatever you’d like… “I'm gay and I'm going to get marred whether you like it or not. I'll probably have kids too.” Obviously you see my point, and don’t care what others think. Why should you? It’s not like you’ll be arrested, which is very different from the government intervention faced by others in our community (the “heads”) or those who have fought for actual civil rights… let alone those murdered by Nazis! Enjoy your freedom, even if you don’t realize you have it.

Marcsmall Fri 11/21/2008 01:04PM
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Marcsmall

Regardless of what any of you say....This issue does not affect you in any way whatsoever unless you are gay.